Arthur and Kevin's Nellorat ([info]nellorat) wrote,
@ 2009-06-10 20:53:00
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Sukktastic Part I: LJ
Well, my participation on [info]cereta's LJ entry didn't end well. "Better than RaceFail"--what a recommendation!

Late last night and this morning, for the first time since high school*, I felt like an extraterrestrial.

"On this planet, in online discussions, people use very similar responses if they disagree and want discussion or if they disagree and wish you'd go away. Response to the former is socially desirable, and response to the latter is socially taboo. The people of Earth seem to be able to tell the difference. Or perhaps they are not hurt when they are yelled at for not knowing the difference. Or perhaps they feel that they deserve the disapprobation."

"On this planet, 'You aren't listening' is considered helpful advice. It is not known whether Earth people consider this specific enough to be helpful or whether the insight about what is being missed is encoded in the way the utterance is formed."

Anyway, at least this time the negative people seemed to think I was a well-intentioned jerk rather than a don't-care-if-I-hurt-people jerk. And actually a fair number of people were happy that I would speak up for views they shared.

And later today I felt a bit less of a total failure at everything LJ. It's not like EVERYONE ELSE in these huge-o discussions has been a RAGING SUCCESS at being heard without being seen as disagreeable. In some ways, I think, there are just no protocols for a huge entry in which many different people wander in because of widespread links--and this is made worse, not better, by the fact that some small sub-groups have indeed formed protocols, and they then get upset that people from different sub-groups follow different protocols.

For now, this sub-group, people who read my LJ, and I seem to speak mostly the same language. And if not, we can explain without getting pissed off. That's a lot!


* In college I did not know how to get laid on this planet, but I had mastered the rudiments of communication.

Mood: not despairing


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[info]supergee
2009-06-11 11:20 am UTC (link)
I wonder if one element in *Fail is a lot of people just wanting to vent about an emotional issue, and feeling that raising questions like this is male answer syndrome.

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[info]nellorat
2009-06-11 02:10 pm UTC (link)
YES!!!!!

And online maybe it's not possible to know the difference--as I lament in my first comment about "this planet"--and/or, as I write to annafdd below, there are signals I was missing. I can really see wht my approach leads me into trouble with topics that evoke a lot of venting but also meta-discussion.

Also, when a lot of people vented IN COMMENTS TO ME, I clearly seemed, bizarrely enough, to be DOGPILING ALL BY MYSELF. Well, someone new "asked," then I'm going to respond. But yeah, especially annoying to them if they were venting, not asking at all.

I do tend to Male(-acculturation) Answer Syndrome anyway. As you know, Bob. But really, I've gotten a lot better over the years, honest! Years and years ago, youngersib actually laid out to me, "I don't want to be told how to make the situation better; I want to be told what a jerk the other guy is." In person or over the phone I'm usually pretty good at making the distinction. But it's not my nature, in some ways--both giving and receiving, I must say; if I don't feel like analysis, I see it as a temporary thing I'll get over--and as I say to annafdd, my habits online may dull my awareness of what signals for "I just want to vent" one gives online.

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[info]annafdd
2009-06-11 05:07 pm UTC (link)
"I don't want to be told how to make the situation better; I want to be told what a jerk the other guy is."

Ah-ha! This is an enlightment moment for me. Yeah, I recognize the feeling because I get it with my mom. Actually, the variant with my mom is "What you should have done to avoid this thing happening aka why it is your fault".

Example: "I parked in a zone I thought was a free parking zone and they towed my car away and charged me 250 pounds and I just lost my job!" Mom: "You have to be more careful where you park! You are always so distracted! You cannot afford to make mistakes like this!"

When all I wanted was "Oh no! Oh poor you!"

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[info]scribblerworks
2009-06-11 09:06 pm UTC (link)
It takes a lot of attention and practice to distinguish online when someone is venting and only needs sympathetic cooing, and when someone is complaining and wants advice or comment. Since there is very little "tone of voice" online. Sure, emoticons help occasionally -- but then you run into jerks who just throw them in inappropriately.

And that wisdom is gained after nearly 10 years moderating a comics discussion board. Not easy at all (hence the continued prevelence of flame-wars).

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[info]cakmpls
2009-06-12 02:31 pm UTC (link)
It takes a lot of attention and practice to distinguish online when someone is venting and only needs sympathetic cooing, and when someone is complaining and wants advice or comment.

It's especially difficult if one is not a person who EVER wants "sympathetic cooing."

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[info]nellorat
2009-06-15 03:21 am UTC (link)
In my case, I do sometimes want and even need sympathy, but I never need it to be without advice. Also, I think that which I want MORE is pretty obvious from the post!

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[info]nellorat
2009-06-13 04:11 pm UTC (link)
Reading your LJ, I often cringe at your mother's response. (My mother is flawless, being dead and all.) EVEN IF you WANTED advice, that advice is the OPPOSITE of what is helpful.

I worked on a book by a client who does workshops for female executives, & I learned a lot from its contents. Good advice (or self-talk) is specific, not global. That is, "You are always so distracted!" is not true and is depressing rather than energizing. The only at-all helpful advice would be very specific, about how to ameliorate this situation (if the sign was hidden by foliage, could you petition for a reduced fine?) or prevent it in the future (when you turn off the engine, begin thinking "I'm going to re-check signs as soon as I get out," making that checking an automatic part of your natural parking routine).

Also, it's better to ask "could you?" There may be good reasons why the suggestions won't work.

And that's only if you WANT advice. :-(

I'd bet your mother is too close to your problems, so the money thing is causing HER worry, so decreasing her worry feels imperative, and this is the only way she knows how to try to change things. If that's true, the situation is sad for her, but worse for you. *hugs* if welcome

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[info]annafdd
2009-06-13 05:05 pm UTC (link)
She is just voicing out loud to me her own internalized dialogue. It's a textbook example of how depressives think and how thinking like that can generate and sustain depression.

She was a completely changed person while she was on antidepressants. In fact, the morning after the towed car incident, she called me and told me "I realise that last night I made things a lot worse for you, and you really didn't need that. I'm sorry." I couldn't believe my ears.

But then her idiot psychiatrist took her off the medication without making sure that she had had enough cognitive work in the meanwhile to allow her to snap out of the dysfunctional thinking.

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[info]nellorat
2009-06-15 08:04 am UTC (link)
That is so horrible!

Personally, I feel I'm probably on Effexor for life. I have had a lot of talking therapy that has helped my life in a great many ways, but my brain just works better this way.

So sorry about the situation with your mother.

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[info]annafdd
2009-06-15 08:49 am UTC (link)
I am very interested in mindfulness based therapy right now, which is a sort of meditation-buddhism-neuropsychology therapy that seems particularly effective on depression. My particular drug of choice has some side-effects I could do without, but I am not letting go of it unless something better comes along.

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