Arthur and Kevin's Nellorat ([info]nellorat) wrote,
@ 2008-07-17 09:19:00
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Interesting Dreams
As I've been exercising, I've been having a number of fat-acceptance dreams. That's not new: two that stand out over the years are lecturing my childhood pediatrician about hunger rebound and setpoint; and discussing fat acceptance to a group of teenagers in a course I was teaching, some of them anorexics.

However, the dreams never have been this frequent. Last night I had two (two in one night is new): that someone actually took a doughnut out of my hand, as I was watching a play, because I was fat; and that we three were in a new house and met our sizist new neighbors. In the former, I made clear to the person (who was a nurse) that apart from health issues, there are issues of human dignity, and she'd never have just taken food from any non-fat, competent adult; in the latter, we sometimes joked ("He's still overweight" "You can tell we don't care much about 'overweight' around here!"), but when the parents called the heavier younger son a name ("Girdle"--only a fat insult in a dream, but I am old enough to have worn one) I argued earnestly. The father said that other people, such as classmates, taunted the kid, and I said that just made family taunts worse.

I think these dreams, as I am exercising as well as watching what I eat, to control my diabetes, are a very good thing.

I've heard that it takes about as long to undo a bad habit of mind, or injured way of looking at an issue or the world, as you lived that way. Well, for around 25 years, I believed that being fat is somehow bad--not that it has certain disadvantages, but that it is bad, and that what I'm doing now is mainly useful in order not to be fat. Then for several years I actively, even aggressively, worked past that, and since then I've consciously believed and tried to live knowing that idea is wrong, even evil. (I do not use the word lightly, but what do you call something that causes so much suffering to so many, can be used as a stick to hit someone with by any person who wants to hurt, and has been shown not to help in the way it might be intended to?)

The idea did occur to me this past week: so, about 25 years, then about 25 years--Could I finally be able to have equanimity on the issue, make practical decisions for my own good without either rebelling against or disregarding good advice (but advice given in the worst way for the worst reasons) or giving in to sizist ideas? Oh my good Lord, would that be great!

The fat-acceptance dreams may be a sign I'm not to that equanimity yet, but I really think they're good, a way of saying to myself that I have not given in to the bad WHY just because I believe (& I do completely believe and have for decades) the scientific WHAT of exercise and nutrition being good--for diabetes in particular, but for everyone, really, and not as a cure for the socially stigmatized condition of being "overweight."

Maybe eventually I'll be able to admit that I watch what I eat & exercise without feeling I have to explain that it's to control diabetes. Dare I hope that maybe, eventually, I'll live in a world in which, if I don't mention the diabetes, people still won't assume that I feel I'm too fat & that I'm doing it just to lose weight?

Mood: feisty yet contemplative; actually starting to like treading to Peter Gabriel videos

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[info]esmeraldus_neo
2008-07-17 01:52 pm UTC (link)
Sounds like you're in a good place.

I trust you have seen the video of "Steam"? There's a particularly genius madonna/whore visual that I like. Another favorite is "Red Rain", for totally different reasons.

I have a wonderful live recording of "In Your Eyes" that I'm dying to share now that I know someone else likes PG as much as I do.

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[info]nellorat
2008-07-18 07:05 am UTC (link)
I still have no idea what "Red Rain" means, though it's a very powerful song. The video is cool but didn't really help. I just got up to that song last night, not up to "Steam" yet; I've seen it but don't recall much.

I'd love to get copies of PG stuff that I don't have! If it's not in general circulation, it's a fair bet I don't; otherwise, I'll have to check what we have & don't have.

Also, I have in the back of my mind to revisit some old Genesis and see what I most recommend to you, maybe taping or making download copies.

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I've got a fat acceptance question
[info]dakiwiboid
2008-07-17 02:10 pm UTC (link)
I've got a very large friend, whom I often see at gatherings and parties. Last night, I was standing next to her twice when people came and thrust leftover desserts in my face with the plea for me to take them home. My normal refusal came out of my mouth automatically, "I have to get [info]moosl's weight down somehow." I've been refusing to take home goodies for him for months now, and though the phraseology is condescending, he actually appreciates the fact that we don't keep rich desserts in the house. I'm hoping that my friend doesn't think that I was pointing my remarks at her somehow. Should I take her aside next time I see her, or just act as if nothing has happened?

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Re: I've got a fat acceptance question
[info]porcinea
2008-07-17 02:51 pm UTC (link)
If I might offer a bit of unsolicited advice -- have you considered using "No, thank you," as your normal refusal? Miss Manners is entirely correct that no reason need be offered. And it spares you this awkwardness.

I have sometimes had to smile and say "No, thank you," more than once, but never more than thrice.

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It would be nice if that worked.
[info]dakiwiboid
2008-07-17 02:56 pm UTC (link)
The ladies in question are very sweet, but don't take "no" for an answer unless I mention my husband. They're apt to tell me how skinny I am how much they've brought and keep pushing past the third "no". It makes for a long night.

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Re: It would be nice if that worked.
[info]womzilla
2008-07-17 05:09 pm UTC (link)
If they "don't take 'no' for an answer", then it cannot be true that they "are very sweet". Not accepting no for an answer is the height of rudeness.

"Oh, no thanks!" followed by "No, thank you", followed by "No, thank you", followed by "No, thank you" as many times as necessary is the proper answer.

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Re: It would be nice if that worked.
[info]nellorat
2008-07-18 12:20 am UTC (link)
If they "don't take 'no' for an answer", then it cannot be true that they "are very sweet". Not accepting no for an answer is the height of rudeness.

Weirdly, I agree with the second sentence but not the first. Sweet and/but codependent? Sweet but totally inflexible about how to express friendship?
Sweet but deaf?

Besides what I mention below, "No, I really can't" is pretty good. Asking "why can't you?" is even ruder, and a type of a rudeness that old ladies do not usually practice.

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Re: I've got a fat acceptance question
[info]firecat
2008-07-17 08:04 pm UTC (link)
I'm not your friend so I can't answer whether she would like you to take her aside. But as a very large person and a fat-activist, I do find your excuse offensive. I agree with [info]porcinea and [info]womzilla that "No thank you" is a better form of refusal. Or if not that, then "We don't keep rich desserts in the house." But not something that references a person's weight or (what I find more offensive) the idea that one person is taking responsibility for another person's weight.

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I know it's condescending
[info]dakiwiboid
2008-07-17 08:21 pm UTC (link)
I'll train myself to get rid of the reflex of using it.

I do wish these ladies (elderly to a woman) wouldn't assume that the youngest person there absolutely must wish to stuff her refrigerator with gooey desserts. My former mother-in-law used to absolutely force bags of stuff into my hands when I walked out of the door. It seems to be cultural. I'll just have to start offering them bags of ripe tomatoes whent the garden starts producing, just to see if the ritual exchange circuit is completed amicably.

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Re: I know it's condescending
[info]nellorat
2008-07-18 12:14 am UTC (link)
"My husband doesn't like desserts around the house" would probably work, is close enough to the truth, and doesn't mention weight. There's also always the possibility of bringing desserts home & just throwing them out. For instance, I was once given cake at work, even though they know I'm diabetic; for courtesy, I took it, for my own joy I took one bite, and then I threw it out, hiding it under other garbage!

As far as talking to the friend, I guess I'd say it depends on a lot of things, including your relationship with her (which I don't know) and why [info]moosl is losing weight (which I should know, but as I work this many hours I selfishly write in LJ but don't read so much). If she's a very good friend and there's a specific, personal reason for the weight loss that does not assume fat is just bad (morally or even for health), then you mgiht discuss it. Otherwise, I'd let it lie.

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[info]machineplay
2008-07-17 02:18 pm UTC (link)
This is good contemplation. I like to think of it now as working so I can enjoy my body. I don't like my body and I arguing. I want to walk to the mall, it doesn't even want to let me go get the mail. We argue a lot. I want to be happy with my body, not in the 'ooh, I'm pretty' sense, but in the 'I love my roommate' sense. I think your exercising is a good way to confront your lingering mythologies while making peace with your body on another level. That it's helping your diabetes is even better.

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[info]nellorat
2008-07-18 12:30 am UTC (link)
Thanks for the comment!

I think your exercising is a good way to confront your lingering mythologies while making peace with your body on another level. That it's helping your diabetes is even better.
Seriously, but oddly, I sometimes entertain the notion that my diabetes, besides being a natural phenomenon (I'm fat, but also my family history is chocked full of diabetics), is a way G-d has of noodging me to certain kinds of personal development I might not otherwise make: understanding food and my body even better, celebrating life by movement, keeping my arteries clear so I can preserve myself for a productive old age.

I don't like my body and I arguing.
Hmmm...I also seem to think more in terms of mind/body dualism than I used to; for a long time, even speaking of "me" vs. "my body" didn't make sense to me emotionally. I suspect yet another benefit of this new stage of things may be to get back to that non-Cartesian mindset.

Edited at 2008-07-18 12:31 am UTC

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[info]machineplay
2008-07-18 01:10 am UTC (link)
Well, I think that having chronic pain and whacked-out allergies have definitely put me in the me-vs-body camp. *grins* That's mostly what's done it for me. When my body stops functioning, I'm still doing stuff in here. It's like driving standard with a bad clutch, leaky oil pan, holey muffler, and erratic electronics.

Anything that brings you more understanding and learning can't be all bad. I'm glad it's put a bee in your ear about taking care of yourself. We do want you around for a long time! :)

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[info]nellorat
2008-07-18 07:00 am UTC (link)
Oh, sorry, yes--as much as I generally agree with and value non-Cartesian thinking on this, pain seems to me to be the one thing that is actually better if we separate our "self" from our "body." Before my extreme menstrual pain was sufficiently drugged into submission, I found it did help to think of the pain, and even the body that felt the pain, as something separate from "me."

And yes about the auto imagery. When I started with fat-acceptance, I sometimes thought of my body as a somewhat grungy '57 Ford or Chevy truck: it might not be a sports car, or new, and it might have some problems, but it always got me where I wanted to go.

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[info]ozarque
2008-07-17 03:00 pm UTC (link)
Way to go; good for you.

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[info]browngirl
2008-07-17 04:50 pm UTC (link)
Go you! You know this resonates with me. :) I'd say more but I'm stealing time...

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[info]metasilk
2008-07-18 02:12 am UTC (link)
I agree with the time to undo estimate. I realized at one point it had taken me 15 years of "practice" to reach the depression I was in; I gave myself -- explicitly saying so to my therapist -- 15 years to practice new patterns.

Here we are, almost 15 years later, and I've done pretty well at it.

The bad (eventually/slowly self-destructive) habits of body (sugar, lack of exercise) will take me longer to reshape, I think, perhaps because I haven't -- and may never -- reach such a terrifying crisis point, so the motivation to change is much weaker.

As a friend says: "makes for thinky thoughts"

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[info]nellorat
2008-07-18 07:22 am UTC (link)
The depression is a weird, huge, ginormous thing to tackle, so your doing pretty well on that is doing a lot! And I definitely agree with the common wisdom that it's generally better to mainly work on one kind of change at a time.

Ironically, even though I usually work on better eating for the diabetes and then exercise, I actually think that exercise is more basic to good health for everyone, and for most people, eating doesn't have to be state-of-the-art nutrition perfect to be pretty much OK. I remember being bummed out after reading Paul Campos's book on fat: he made a very thorough case that what affected health was not body fat but physical activity, and I was physically in sh*t shape! Walking, a sport, gardening, a martial art, bicycling, dancing, yoga--any of these can be cool. One big problem for me has been finding the time, besides the issues I mention here, but, as so often happens, it doesn't seem quite so tough once I have made that priority.

I do think that I deal better with habits that change more gradually, and in which backsliding is expected, while physical conditioning actually becomes less pleasant if it isn't done every day or at least every other day. Missing exercise for even a moderate while is more likely to require total restarting, for me. Bummer but true.

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